From the editor and writers of Bright Lights Film Journal
Action! Interviews with Directors from Classical Hollywood to Contemporary Iran
(Anthem Art and Culture), by Gary Morris (Editor), Bert Cardullo (Introduction), Jonathan Rosenbaum (Foreword). London and New York: Anthem Press, 2009.
(Anthem Art and Culture), by Gary Morris (Editor), Bert Cardullo (Introduction), Jonathan Rosenbaum (Foreword). London and New York: Anthem Press, 2009.
"I dare anyone to squeeze between
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flat out entertaining sampling of
the personalities that make the
seventh art the liveliest."
David Hudson, IFC.com
David Hudson, IFC.com
Paradise Betrayed
Talking with Terence Davies about Of Time and the City
"You can't stop time. It stops you."
Terence Davies' new film, Of
Time and the City, is exquisite: a poetic paean to his native
Liverpool, where the music of Bruckner, the words of T. S.
Eliot and James Joyce, and footage of Liverpool in the 1950s combine to
create a euphoric rhythm in black and white. And yet, despite the
sublime shots of gothic cathedrals, children holding mothers' hands,
ferries crossing the river, the film is punctuated with stop-dead lines
such as "I will get you in the end," muttered by Satan. Where does such
a combination of pessimism and the sublime come from? We asked Terence
Davies himself, renowned cineaste of such breathtaking meditations as Death
and Transfiguration (1983), Distant Voices, Still
Lives (1988), and House of Mirth (2000).
Your film has an ineffable
beauty, almost sacred, and yet you have chosen the most pessimistic
texts from James Joyce and T. .S. Eliot. Can you
explain this contradiction?
As I say in my film, it is paradise
betrayed. I was very, very devout, and I tried to live according to the
tenets of the Church: be good in word and deed, which is impossible.
When at age 11, I realized I was gay, I prayed until my knees hurt, and
I was in deep despair I carried on until I was 22. I thought any doubt
was the Devil's work, and you have to resist it. Then I realized it was
just a lie. I really touched the nadir, and I thought I could not go
on.
You felt that as a child?
I felt it as a child nonetheless,
and that was hard. I think it was Nietzsche who said that something
that does not kill you makes you stronger, and it does, but at the time
you don't know how. The film Victim came out in
1960, and it used the word "homosexual." It was the first time I heard
that word. The character said, "I am a homosexual," and I remember
thinking, "And so am I." I was terrified. People's lives were ruined
for that word. I felt utter terror. It was the nadir of my life: a
sexual crisis, a spiritual crisis.
Cinema took over after that. And
then the discovery of the music of Bruckner, who was spiritual and
sublime, and a devout Catholic. So I channeled my own life into cinema,
because (a) being gay was against the law until 1967, and (b) I wasn't
attractive. I did not have a good body. Nobody was interested. So I
decided my work would be my life. My work became my raison d'etre. It
was because of my despair that I decided I have to do something. I
thought, I cannot continue in a life that I find aesthetically
offensive. Because I don't like the gay world. I find it superficial.
Great if you look good, but if you don't, forget it.
It was that despair that made
me
decide to do something aesthetic. Because art does imply hope. All
great art implies hope. I discovered Eliot's Four Quartets,
and then when I was in drama school, I discovered the sonnets of
Shakespeare. Those two and the music of Bruckner have given me solace,
because they are sublime. I listen to Bruckner, and I say I can quite
happily die now. I read the Four Quartets once a
month. The sonnets are superb and so reassuring. You read something
like :
"Like as the waves
make towards the pebbled shore,
So do our minutes hasten to their end,
Each changing place with that which goes before
In sequent toil all forwards do contend."
So do our minutes hasten to their end,
Each changing place with that which goes before
In sequent toil all forwards do contend."
And you know it is true. It is
comforting. Because truth in the end is always comforting. Because
there is no lie. No fluff. There is no illusion about it.
What are your feelings about
religion now?
The Church tries to convince you
that there is something after death. It is an utter lie. There is
nothing after death. There is nothing beyond the world. There is
nothing frightening about that. If there is something, it is okay as
long as they speak English.
It took some persuasion to make
this film on Liverpool. Why is that?
I am not a documentary filmmaker.
They asked me to do a fiction film, and I said no, I have done two
fiction films. I would like to make a film about the Liverpool I grew
up in. Have you ever seen the film by Humphrey Jennings called Listen
to Britain, which was made in 1932, when we were close to
being invaded? It is only nineteen minutes, with no words, just images
of Britain; it is astonishingly visual, one of the great poems. It is
just trying to capture what it is like to be British at war. And I just
wanted to capture what it was like to be a Liverputian in the 1950s.
When I was growing up, there was a
BBC radio show for mothers and young children called Listen
to Mother, and they sing to you. Anyone my age who hears the
songs will remember their childhood, with all that tenderness. For my
film, we shot some material with just children. The footage has all
that tenderness, the magic of childhood, without you saying that.
What does Liverpool mean to you?
Liverpool? I loved it. It is the
place that made me. I thought there was nothing like it. Especially my
street. It was bliss. My film is a farewell to the city. I don't live
there anymore. My family is dying. It is not the same. Once it is gone,
you can't recapture the magic by going back.
How did you write this film?
I had written a trailer that already
had the architecture of the film. I knew what the journey would be.
Then I got a lot of footage. I was writing it as I was getting it. I
would think, oh yes, I remember such and such: the Grand National, the
horse races. As more and more footage came to me, it gave me more and
more ideas. I have to use that shot of the little girl running out! I
also used the texts of Eliot and Joyce, plus three poems of my own, and
my prose.
The movie is about time. What is
your feeling about time?
My feelings about time are
influenced by poetry, especially by T. S. Eliot.
Eliot is constantly drawn back to the idea of where it all begins and
where does it end. All time is unredeemable, he says. We think time
moves from one thing to itself, but it doesn't. Time is outside of us.
The act of remembering changes the original experience. He says: "For
the roses had the look of flowers that are looked at." You can never
capture time.
Isn't time redemptive for
Eliot?
Is it? It is frightening. Time is
unknowable. We don't know what will happen in forty years' time. Where
does memory go? Where does all that knowledge that we accumulate go?
Virginia Woolf says something similar in The Waves.
She writes that man is a judge, that man is a millionaire. But why? The
tragedy of that! Another character, very sexual, says she knows she can
sit in a chair and say, "Come to me. Come," and he will come. That is
tragic.
Why tragic? She can make a man
come to her!
It is tragic. She knows she has
sexual power, but it does not mean a thing. It is knowing that at the
peak of ecstasy, it is passing. Even as a child, I knew that it was
passing. In two hours it will be gone. My film is about painful
nostalgia. The word for it is poignant. Bittersweet.
Your end comes from Prufrock:
the lines "Goodnight, Goodnight, Goodnight." I find Eliot's ending to
his poem has a sacred feel, just like the ending "Shantih, Shantih,
Shantih" to The Wasteland. Does your ending feel
sacred to you?
No.
One last question: what did this
movie give you?
It made me feel worthwhile, because
I hadn't worked for several years.
Did it also give you the
satisfaction of using art to stop time?
No. Because you can't stop time. It
stops you.
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