From the editor and writers of Bright Lights Film Journal
Action! Interviews with Directors from Classical Hollywood to Contemporary Iran
(Anthem Art and Culture), by Gary Morris (Editor), Bert Cardullo (Introduction), Jonathan Rosenbaum (Foreword). London and New York: Anthem Press, 2009.
(Anthem Art and Culture), by Gary Morris (Editor), Bert Cardullo (Introduction), Jonathan Rosenbaum (Foreword). London and New York: Anthem Press, 2009.
"I dare anyone to squeeze between
two covers a more varied, useful and
flat out entertaining sampling of
the personalities that make the
seventh art the liveliest."
David Hudson, IFC.com
David Hudson, IFC.com
Monsters, Inc.
An Interview with Ray Harryhausen
"I wrecked Washington, and I
wrecked New York, and San Francisco. That got rather tiresome after a while."
Ray Harryhausen created his first
monster in 1933. It was a cave bear. He worked on it in his parents'
garage, and brought it to life in the garden. After that, he tried
dinosaurs. At first, he had trouble with the legs, but persevered — if
he has one word of advice for anyone making monsters, it's
"persistence" — and by the early 1950s he had perfected his technique
and branched into mutated sea creatures and angry aliens. Then, a
belligerent band of beasts at his command, he set about trashing the
planet.
Laying
cities to waste was a much more arduous business then, too, long before
the advent of Computer Generated Imagery. Harryhausen, of course, is
the master nonpareil of stop-motion animation, that endangered
filmmaking technique by which models are brought to life through being
photographed frame by frame, moved millimetre by painstaking millimetre
between exposures. Today, he's probably most associated with the movies
he made after that initial demolition derby that lasted from The
Beast from 20,000 Fathoms (1953) to 20 Million
Miles to Earth (1957): those forays into myth, fantasy, and
adventure exemplified by such beloved films as The Seventh
Voyage of Sinbad (1958) and Jason and the Argonauts
(1963).
He made his last feature, Clash
of the Titans, in 1981, but recently has been a tangible
presence in cinema; the Lord of the Rings movies
resembled nothing so much as a muscular, Germanic updating of
fantastical Harryhausen sagas of old. Across the past three decades, in
fact, with Steven Spielberg, George Lucas, James Cameron, and Peter
Jackson all admitting debts, Harryhausen has unexpectedly come to rival
Hitchcock (with whom he shared a favourite composer, Bernard Herrmann),
as the filmmaker exerting the most influence on succeeding generations.
He lives in London, having moved to
the UK in the late 1950s because it was cheaper to make his kind of
movie there. Now 87 (he was 82 when this interview took place), he
retains an active interest in the evolution of the special-effects
field. Most recently, he launched the Ray Harryhausen Presents
series, to oversee and spotlight the work of a new generation of
animators. The first product of the enterprise, Marc Lougee's creepy
take on The Pit and the Pendulum, was released in
the summer of 2007. (For more on that and Harryhausen's raft of other
projects, visit his official
site.)
If pressed,
he will admit he sees his influence around, but he remains a very
modest guru, perhaps because he sees a cycle repeating. He himself
learned at the feet of a master, pinpointing the moment his life
changed to the afternoon in Los Angeles in 1933 when he entered
Grauman's Chinese Theatre to be transfixed by a new movie called King
Kong, and resolved to learn the secrets of the film's genius
animator, Willis O'Brien, the man who became his mentor. He was 13.
Working alone in his darkroom,
Harryhausen always retained the wide-eyed thrill of the kid alone in
his garage after school. Yet, simultaneously, he pursued working
practises shared only with artists operating along cinema's most
experimental fringes — avant-garde animators like Len Lye and Norman
McLaren. Labouring between the very frames of a film, Ray Harryhausen
spent his career working down among the DNA of cinema. Close, perhaps,
to its soul.
DAMIEN LOVE: I'd assume you still
take an active interest in following the developments of the animation
industry.
RAY HARRYHAUSEN:
Oh yes. It's changed considerably.
Have there been any recent films
that you've thought especially good?
Well, yes. The Lord of the
Rings is fascinating, and the Harry Potter films. It's a
different situation than I'm used to, but I try to follow them.
The Lord of the Rings
seems almost like a classic Ray Harryhausen project. Didn't you once
plan a version of The Hobbit?
Well, we were asked to do The
Hobbit one time, and The Lord of the Rings,
but somehow it didn't work out. That was some years ago.
When you see a film like The
Lord of the Rings, do you see a lot of yourself in it?
Yes, I suppose one can, yes.
Do you ever think, "Oh, I
would've done that differently"?
Sometimes. But they had some very
spectacular things, and very impressionable things. I enjoyed it very
much.
If you were starting out today,
do you think you would be in your garage working on a computer?
Ah-ha. That I don't know. That's all
speculation. When I started out, the amazing image on the screen was
quite rare. Today, spectacular and amazing imagery is so profuse that
it's commonplace. The astounding is no longer astounding, because
you're inundated on television and on the movie screen with the most
amazing visuals. So, the spectacular really doesn't have the same
connotations as some years ago.
Can you talk a little about how
you started? I gather it was seeing King Kong
(1933) really.
Yes, I saw King Kong
when I was thirteen, and I didn't know how it was done at the time, but
I knew it wasn't a man in a gorilla suit. I finally found out about
stop-motion and I started experimenting in my garage and it gradually
grew from a hobby into a profession.
When you were growing up as a kid
in Los Angeles in the 1920s, were you aware of the Hollywood community
as part of the town?
No. I had no connection whatsoever
with Hollywood. I lived in Los Angeles, but not necessarily near
Hollywood. It was something you'd see on the screen, but it was very
far-fetched from working in your garage on experiments.
What was the first creature you
built yourself as a teenager?
One of them was a cave bear. Then I
did a model of a stegosaurus, which won a prize at a Los Angeles museum
on an amateur basis. So, yeah, I made a cave bear and a little
miniature set, and then my first shots with 16mm were out in the
garden. I built the set outside because I didn't have any lights and,
of course, the shadows all change as you shoot one frame at a time.
That takes quite a bit of time to do it. But it was an exciting
experiment to see that bear moving on its own.
You've long had a fascination
with dinosaurs.
Yes, dinosaurs, most young fellows, I think, and
girls sometimes, enjoy dinosaurs. They're fantasy creatures — which
actually existed! That's the fascination, I suppose, they're so
fantastic in their appearance that to think that they lived millions of
years ago . . . Charles Knight's drawings
always fascinated me, he was the painter for the American museum of
Natural History, and I based a lot of my dinosaurs on his work. Now you
have many books. Charles Knight (right) was about
the only one painting prehistoric life at that time. There were others,
but not as impressive as Knight's. His work is still outstanding, I
think.
How did you first get to meet Kong
animator Willis O'Brien?
Well, I called him up. A friend of
mine in high school said, "Just call him up." I saw her reading a book
in our study class period, and it had illustrations of King
Kong in it, and it turned out it was King Kong's
script actually. My eyes almost fell out. So we talked about it, I
introduced myself, and she said, "Well, call him up, he's working at
MGM on War Eagles." So I called him up after I got
back from high school, and told him of my interest, and he invited me
out to the studio. And I brought some of my dinosaurs to show him in a
suitcase. His office was filled with wonderful drawings of War
Eagles, which, unfortunately was never produced.
Didn't he tell you that you
should work on your legs?
Yes! Well, anatomy. He said, "Your
dinosaur legs look like sausages, you gotta put muscles on 'em." So I
studied anatomy, and I took life drawing and many other courses all
through the period and I kept in touch with O'Brien, and when he
started Mighty Joe Young (1949), after the war, I
became his assistant.
I've read that because of
production problems that were taking up O'Brien's time, you animated
around 85 percent of that movie.
Yes. Some people even tell me 90
percent, they've seen the schedules. But Obie's time was taken up
getting the next set-up ready, mostly. He did a little bit of
animation, but not very much. He had to plan everything ahead, based on
his design, and that took most of his time.
I guess that film was really the
big leap for you?
Well, yes. It was the biggest event
in my life to be able to work with the people who had made King
Kong. Merian Cooper and Ernest Schoedsack and Willis O'Brien,
that was the biggest thrill I think in my life, to be able to work on a
film with them.
By that time were you firmly
fixed that this was what you wanted to do?
Yes. The next picture was always
questionable, whether you were gonna get the next
picture, you know, and what's the subject. You were never quite sure.
But Mighty Joe Young helped me have something to
show people. My first solo effort was with The Beast from
20,000 Fathoms (1953).
That's very modest of you to say
you had something to show; Willis O'Brien won the Oscar for that
picture. You had an Oscar-winning picture for your showreel!
Yes, but nobody was beating down our
doors, you know. We were planning another picture that Obie designed,
but nobody was, you know, beating on the door even though it won an
Academy Award.
Wasn't John Ford involved in Mighty
Joe Young?
Well, no, he had nothing to do with
the picture, but John Ford and Merian Cooper were partners in Argosy
Films, and that was why his name was on it, as "a presenter." He had
actually nothing to do with the film.
It always struck me as rather
outside of Ford's area.
No, not John Ford's cup of tea. He
prefers realism rather to fantasy, I think.
I'd like to take you back a
little to just before Mighty Joe Young. America had
entered the war and you signed up . . .
Yeah, I signed up to be a combat cameraman. Ha
ha. I didn't realise they were shot like clay pigeons! I was very naive
in those days. But I'd made a little film, three minutes long. I went
to a class to learn all about the cameras at Columbia Studios, and I
made this little three-minute film showing how you could use animation
as a tool, illustrating how to build a bridge across a gorge. And I
showed it to my head teacher, and he showed it to Frank Capra. So I got
into the special service division through that little film.
Did you meet Capra?
Yes, he was our commanding officer
How was he to serve under?
Oh, wonderful, it was great. And I
also worked with Ted Geisel, Dr Seuss. He was a Captain at that time,
and became a Major later, and he was head of the cartoon department,
where they made Snafu cartoons. It was a delight to
work with him. I also became an assistant cameraman and did many
different jobs when I was with the special service division.
Was all that work carried out in
the States?
It was all carried out in the
States. We used to travel to various states, we photographed the Swiss
slaughterhouse, how they packed meat for the armed forces. Oh we
photographed all different avenues of nuts and bolts, and how they make
this and that, all for Army-Navy Screen Magazine. I
also had several of my sculptures on the cover of Yank
magazine. Little figures, like in Esquire, you
know. Little thee-dimensional figures. I did the Christmas cover of
Santa Claus and Snafu coming down on a parachute and several others.
For many filmmakers of your
generation, the war shaped their outlook. Do you think the war had any
impact on the route you chose, the kinds of film you wanted to make? Or
maybe the kinds of film you didn't want to make?
Oh, I don't know whether the war
influenced them like that, no. I was always interested in fantasy. I
know my mother bought me, when I was very young, a set of books called The
Wonder Books, and they used to show space travel and all
sorts of unusual fantasy subjects, Greek Mythology, Arabic Mythology,
and I guess that that stimulated me in my early days. But I like to
work with three-dimensional objects rather than flat drawings.
Yeah, I've seen a few of your
drawings and you could have easily pursued a career in that.
Well, I had to learn to draw to put
my ideas on paper so other people could see them, so I forced myself
into drawing, though I prefer to work in three dimensions.
You've had the benefit of a long
friendship with Ray Bradbury, and you both work in very different areas
of what could be loosely termed the fantastic. What do you think are
your fundamental differences, and what is the thing you have in common
that made and kept you friends?
Well, we both love fantasy. I met
Ray through the Science Fiction League that used to hold meetings every
Thursday at Clifton's Cafeteria, and we had rocket men and the
Egyptologists and various other people who were interested in fantasy,
and that's where I first met Forry Ackerman and Ray Bradbury. He was
the young budding writer selling papers on the street corner. He kept
getting rejection slips, but finally he hit the big time, and look
where is now! So, he had a lot of sticktoitiveness, which is important
in any career, I think. But his fantasy of course is a little different
to mine. I go more for the fairy tales and sort of the graphic type of
fairy tale, rather than the symbolic.
You mentioned your mother's
influence. I gather when you were making the Mother Goose
fairy stories series (1946) you had both your parents working with you
on those.
Yes,
after the Army, I had some old film that the Navy threw out because it
was outdated. It was about, oh, six months outdated, and I had a
thousand feet of it I had literally retrieved from the junk pile! I had
it in my garage and I couldn't figure out what to do with it, so I
thought, well, I'll make fairy tales for the schools. So I started the
series of Mother Goose stories. They're still going
in the schools today. My father helped me in his spare time, making the
armatures and building some of the sets, and my mother dressed the
puppets, so it was a nice family affair, and I finally had a hobby
house built behind my garage so I could expand a little more.
Your mother had stimulated your
mind with books, and your father was a machinist, I think I'm correct
in saying. So you kind of synthesised both?
Yes, you could say that, the
technical along with the artistic, yes.
The films you're probably most
famous for are those you made with producer Charles H Schneer. One
thing that struck me across your career is that you've retained from King
Kong and Mighty Joe Young a great deal of
sympathy for your creatures. Even something like 20 Million
Miles to Earth (1957) the creature in that is a real
innocent, it only ever defends itself. It's not an evil thing, it's an
innocent abroad. Have you always been conscious of having that kind of
sympathy for your creations?
Oh yes. I always felt, when I saw Kong,
I felt very sorry for him being shot down off the Empire State
Building. So I tried to give a pathos — particularly when a beast is
dying! So that he's not all bad. I remember Eugene LouriƩ, who directed
The Beast [From 20,000 Fathoms],
he said, "Ray makes his beast die like a tenor in an opera."
You had a habit of just
destroying cities and landmarks in that period. You wrecked
Washington . . .
Oh yes, I wrecked Washington, and I
wrecked New York, and San Francisco. That got rather tiresome after a
while. But that was the fashion in the fifties. If you had a
destructive script, well, that was the in thing, so we went through
that series, Charles Schneer and I. But then I felt we could branch off
into something new, and I showed him some drawings I had made of Sinbad
fighting the skeleton, and he got very excited, and so we made The
Seventh Voyage of Sinbad (1958).
The skeletons, in Seventh
Voyage and Jason and the Argonauts (1963)
are probably your most famous creations — but they're probably the most
unsympathetic, too.
Well, in the actual story of Jason,
of course, the rotting corpses come out of the ground, but we were
afraid that if we did that we would get an X at that time. Today, you
would get blessed for having rotting corpses come out of the ground!
You know, they just . . . times have
changed. But we didn't want to get an X in those days.
Am I right in thinking that at
one point the British Board of Film Classification removed the skeleton
from Sinbad?
In Seventh Voyage,
yes, they removed the whole sequence! When it first came out. We were
shocked when we came over — because, you know, everybody's got a
skeleton inside of them! And they took the whole skeleton sequence out.
But now of course it's been put back in recent years.
Did you protest that removal?
Oh, yes, Charles got very upset. We
protested . . . but that was the way
censorship was in the fifties. Now you can put almost any obscene thing
on the screen and nobody will stop it.
Those skeletons are some of the
things you're most associated with — do you have a particular affinity
for them?
No, that just started out,
originally, that was the first drawing I made for The Seventh
Voyage, Sinbad fighting the skeleton. And I realised, I had
always wanted to animate a skeleton because most of the ones you saw on
the screen were really terribly badly done, unless they were drawings
or something. But I felt that if you had James Bond fighting a skeleton
it would be comical, so I wanted to get a legendary character like
Sinbad, who personifies adventure. You'd believe that he could fight a
skeleton — but not James Bond.
A question I'm sure you've been
asked it many times, but do you have a favourite out of your creations?
Oh, I can't.
The others would get jealous. I like the complicated ones, Medusa's one
of my favourites, and of course the Hydra and the skeletons. But each
character, you know, you feel that you want to make the best you can of
it.
The amount of control you had
over the animation process, you were basically a one-man show weren't
you?
Yes I was. I did all the animation
myself, except on the last film [Clash of the Titans,
1981], I had to have help because we got behind due to technical
problems. But every other picture I did every inch of animation myself.
And built the models as well. I wore many hats. But I'm not just handed
a script; I work with the writer on the scripts, and I'm associate
producer, sometimes producer, and direct some of the sequences that
involve my work. But Mr Schneer was the actual owner of the company and
he was the producer.
With that in mind, why did you
never decide to go the whole hog and direct an entire picture?
Well, I didn't
feel . . . you see, all my characters, the
ones I created and animated, they would do exactly what I wanted.
Actors, particularly today, they want to dictate how the picture's
done, and that's a different situation. But I felt that, I were to
direct the full thing, either the special effects would suffer or the
direction would suffer if I tried to do too much, so I avoided that
deliberately. I'd like to have directed — I think I could have done
better than some of the directors we had. The director's main
responsibility on our film was to get the best out of the actors. It
wasn't what you'd call a director's picture in the European sense of
the word.
So you were sometimes frustrated
by what a director was doing?
Sometimes, yes, but you had to take
the bitter with the sweet.
Out of all the directors you
worked with, was there one who stood out for you?
Well, a lot of times the directors
resented my having so much say about what was to be on the screen, and
sometimes you'd have clashes of personality. But on the whole I found
that working with directors who had been technicians before was
preferable for me — like Don Chaffey, who used to be an art director,
so he understood the problems, and Gerry Juran, who also used to be an
art director, so he understood, so we got along quite well. But some
directors felt that I was treading on their toes, and we sometimes had
clashes, but that was rare.
Was there a film that was
particularly fraught, with a director wanting to go off in a different
direction?
Well, one or two, yes. But I won't
go into them! It was just a clash of personalities, and a different
point of view, which sometimes creates a bit of a problem. But mostly
we got along quite well.
How about the actors? I guess
what the actors had to do in your films, particularly forty, fifty
years ago, demanded quite a lot of them?
Yes. Well, I would make drawings, very detailed
drawings of each set-up, so they knew pretty well, it was published in
the script, so they knew what they were going to look at. Even though
it was a pole on the set — a stick, you know, representing the dinosaur
or whatever — they would see my drawings and know how to react
properly, and the director would encourage that.
It still seems incredible the
amount of interaction you got in something like Kerwin Matthews'
swordfight with the skeleton in Seventh Voyage,
particularly when there were no monitors or anything to go by.
Yes, well, we shot the live action
first, and then I animate to whatever happens on the screen, and I time
it, I have to split-time it so the swords meet at the proper time. When
we got to Jason and the Argonauts, there were seven
of the skeletons, and it took quite a while to position them in each
frame of film. The time it took to reposition seven skeletons really
was quite extensive. But on the whole, animation goes quite quickly.
Really? I think a lot of people's
perception would be that it takes a long, long painstaking time and you
must have great amounts of patience.
Well, it takes patience, and
sometimes you only get less than a foot a day on some scenes, but on
the whole you maybe get 25, 30 feet a day. But it's not everybody's cup
of tea. You have to have a special yen for it. And apparently I have
that yen.
You had quite a long association
with Bernard Herrmann.
Yes, that was a pleasure. Music's so
important in our films. I learned that from Max Steiner's great score
for Kong. A good score from a very imaginative and
talented musician is so important, and we had the benefit of Bernie
Herrmann and Miklos Rozsa, all supreme musicians, and Lawrence
Rosenthal, all of these people were top rate, and they had a great
imagination and they contributed an enormous amount to our films.
Herrmann had a reputation for
being a little cranky. How did you approach him?
Well, Mr Schneer knew him, and he
approached him when we made Seventh Voyage, and we
had heard his reputation, that if he didn't like a film he would tell
you right to your face. But he seemed to sit through the rushes and a
lot of scenes were missing, the dinosaurs were not there, the monsters
were really just that pole, but I showed him the drawings and finally,
he agreed to it, that he felt he could contribute to it, and he
certainly did. He did four of our films, and his style of music fitted
our films very much.
A lot of people consider Jason
and the Argonauts to be perhaps your masterpiece — would you
agree?
Yes, I think there are good things
in other films, you always set out to make an outstanding picture, some
of them are not considered that way by other people, but I think Jason
is one of our best, a picture I'm most happy with all the way through.
There are a lot of scenes I'd love to have done over, but, you know,
once it's in the can you have to forget those concepts. Because most
everything that you see in our pictures was a first take. We seldom had
time to do a scene over. Occasionally we'd have retakes due to
technical reasons or something, but I would say that eight-tenths of
everything you see on the screen is a first take. Today, with a
computer you can go over and over and over, and refine it and refine
it, but we didn't have the money or the time to do that.
You made a decision to specialise
in the mixture of live action and animation rather than a fully
animated feature. Why was that?
Oh I prefer that, yeah. I think that
the completely animated film, it gets a little tedious sometimes,
that's why I think the combination of live action and the animated
figure works out. King Kong is still a masterpiece
of entertainment. And I hope ours will last as long. But nobody else
has made films quite like we made. And I don't know whether they will
in the future! Willis O'Brien started the single-figure animation of a
jointed figure way back in 1915, and I tried to carry on when he
stopped.
Am I right in thinking that you
studied acting for a while?
Oh, yes, I studied acting and I'm
grateful for that. One time I thought I wanted to be an actor, but I
got butterflies on opening night! I prefer to be behind the camera. But
I'm glad I took a course at Los Angeles City College in drama and
acting.
Did you use that when you were
positioning the creatures and their reactions?
Oh yes, you learn to react.
Would it be fair to say, then,
that those creatures we see on screen are a kind of surrogate of you
acting?
Yes . . .
Yes it could be. I act through my figures rather than appear in front
of the camera.
You've had such a profound
influence on a whole group of filmmakers.
Yes, some of them say that. I'm
grateful if I was a positive influence, because no one else was making
fantasy films the way we made them. People like Peter Jackson and
Spielberg and Lucas and Phil Tippett, all of those people say that if
we hadn't made those films they don't know where they'd be. So our
films have influenced, and I'm always grateful for that. I get a lot of
fan mail from young people who say that our films made their childhood,
because there was nothing else like it on the screen, of a fantasy
nature, except cartoons, and we're glad we made more than just an hour
or so of entertainment.
Final question. What advice would
you give to a young kid out there who's maybe just seen Seventh
Voyage of Sinbad (below) on television
for the first time and is sitting in his room staring at his box of
plasticine thinking, "I wanna do that"? What advice would you give
about what makes a good monster?
Oh
gosh, that's hard to tell. Tastes have changed today. Persistence, if
you've got an idea. I think everyone is born in the time they're
supposed to be. And today there's a whole different concept. So it's
hard to advise young people. Everybody's got to know about the computer
today, that's definitely important. But I don't think it's the be-all
and the by-all. There's room for every technique. We tried to make our
monsters as believable as possible, and I think we accomplished that.
But tastes have changed today, and you can get very eccentric. There's
a different point of view today, because we've been inundated with this
type of entertainment over the years. It's no longer fresh. When we
started out in the 1950s, even back when Obie did King Kong,
monsters were amazing things to see . . .
monsters are relatively common today.







